|
Firstly I must apologise to any members who responded to the first attempt to create this section. When first set up I used a E mail address that unknown to me would not except many downloads. So in the process I lost much info, i.e. I never got it, coupled with a then very amature knowledge of computers and web sites and a job that became very demanding the idea floundered.
Know semi retired and with an E mail address with a massive memory and storage capacity dedicated just to the Register, lets try again. It all works I've tried it all out with big downloads and I promise to visit the site regularly and update the section.
Again apologises to all.
This list is of the boats known to the Register to date that have been either built or worked on by the Allens. It includes many boats not in the Register and where possible the length/engine/ and a photograph of the boat.
The BW number is hopefully also included as it is the one piece of info that never changes, unlike boat names, owners and colours. Owners details are only included on the site at the owner request and then only names, no address or locations will be added unless requested to do so.
To date the photographs have come from my collection as has much of the information in that section. I have no doubt that some of the facts are not correct as much has been compiled from memory and talking to others who moored at the yard.
So please tell me if anything is wrong or you wish to expand the facts on your boat. IN ANY CORRESPONDENCE ALWAYS INCLUDE THE BW NUMBER: sorry if I shouted: I believe CAPITALS in E mails etc are shouting, but it is important to include the BW number.
If your boat is not on this list and you know it as an Allen, or the info is wrong or your boat was worked on by them, Please tell us about it, details below.
Membership
|
E mail: please tell us about your boat, Name: BW number: Engine type: When you aquiried vessel and the history of the vessel that you know.
No fee is requiried:-http://allenregister@googlemail.com
|
|
The Register has been running for sometime now and a number of present and past owners of Allen Boats have contacted the Register with various questions. Many asking about the history of thier boat or past owners or families wondering where and how the boat they once owned or knew is fairing.
These requests have revealed just how much we don't know about some boats especially those that have changed names and BW numbers.
These section is a forum where the questions and information can be aired. All answers will be placed alongside the requests, no names or address or locations of owners/boats will be given unless requested to do so.
IN THE HOPE THIS SECTION WILL GROW IT HAS BEEN GIVEN ITS OWN PAGE:- SO PLEASE CLICK PROMPT BELOW TO ENTER THIS PAGE.
On to page 7 of the Allen Register
|
Allen Boat Lists
The boats are in no particular order when we have a photograph: They are however in sections:
Allens Boats-
Boats known to be built completely by the Allens: They never fitted out boats so its just hulls and super structure.
Honoured Boats-
Boats worked on or altered by the Allens.
Un registered Boats-
Boats seen on members trips and recognized as Allens but owners not contacted
Horton Boats-
A section on boats built by John Horton who worked at the yard leaving just before the yard closed. After leaving John firstly built shells at Teddesley for the hire fleet, then moved to Oldbury Boat Services where he built a number of boats for private customers. John moved again to larger premises away from the canal where he built a number of boats until he to retired in about 2006. All of his boats look like Allens because thats the way he learn't to build them at the Allens. He stamped his own identity on them but they nevertheless continiued the classic shape for a few years after the Allens stopped.
After the photo section which we hope to extend in time there is an A to Z of boats attributed to the Allens.
List collated from various sources all in the public domain: but we do not believe every boat has been found.
Any mistakes are probably from original sources. Any corrections/etc or other boats please down load form and send to address on form or Email information to: http://allenregister@googlemail.com
Photo section: Boats in particular order
|
Maudelayne:-- BW Number 66675: 62ft long:
An early Allen which
originally had a wood cabin, came back to yard in early 90's to be re bottomed having just been bought. Some where along the line the Allens virtually re built her by fitting a steel sheathed cabin. An experience that would have been horrendous at some boat builders, but the experience has led to a life time friendship between the owner and the Allens, thus was the way they did business.
Is a much cherished boat, is lived on and is much cruised.
Two photo's here to illustrate the fact that boats do change livery even in the smallest of ways.
Further info:- Use this boat as an example of just what we could create in this section:-
Extract from Inland Waterways 'Boat Listings'
Maudelayne Tyne Oldbury:-66675
Narrowboat 62ft: dark blue/pale blue. built 1971 Les Allen & Sons, Oldbury. Fit out Tony Pelayo, Aylesbury. Engine:-Lister SR3.
First owner Capt Kirk? who commission build: original name 'Tyne Oldbury'. Registered with British Register of Shipping No 341496. Blue book has been kept up to date.
New owner re-named boat Maudelayne after the Shipmans barge in Chaucer's Prologue. The Allens were not happy (I cannot believe that) with proposed name change so the three names were added together and Blue Book altered.
Name appears to have been shortened again: probably for convenience?, although the full name is recorded in most lists.
|
|  |
|
Hecla:-- BW Number 500777: 47 ft long:
Built mid 1990's: Engine Fushio Twin diesel : Home waters BCN
A fine example of a modern BCN replicia tug. Les Allen Senior was the boat builder fore man at Spencer Abbott's where they made real tugs, which is why the pedigree is there.
Fit out by owner
|
| 
|
|
Placidus:-- BW Number 50487: 40 ft long:
Built late 1991: Engine Lister LPW3: Home waters BCN. Fit out by owner. A much travelled boat and again a boat that moored at the yard and had to be thrown out when it closed.
Fit out by owner.
|
| 
|
|
White Locks:-- BW Number 72910: 6O ft long:
Built late 1980's: Engine 1.5 BMC: Home waters BCN. Fit out by owner.
This photo taken on an Oldbury Navy trip before the yard closed. Seen in the photo is White Locks in the fore ground with Pasadena (now on the Thames: along side prior to being sold), with Hawthorn behind, and out of shot Ogla May behind Hawthorn.
Name of boat comes from Bratch Locks, today the locks and buildings are natural brick but once used to be rendered and painted white.
Again a boat that stayed for years at the yard, its owner becoming friends with the Allens as we all did who moored there.
Owner the source of much info in recognising an Allen. Worked in engineering and produced many gas locker hinges fitted to later Allen boats. Cruise with this boat often, usual CB radio message when meeting an Allen, " Some of my hinges coming towards us"
|
|
|
Hawthorn:-- BW Number 54905: 60 ft long:
Engine Gardner 4LK: Home waters BCN.
Fit out by owner (Still on going on third change of bunk arrangements:
Originally designed to take two children who grew up and stopped boating, grand children know require bunks ripped out to add comfort for two retired owners?)
Most of boat built in 1991/2 but has the bows of a very much older boat Nutbrook. Nutbrook was built in the 80's but was lenghten again in the late 80's when a new bow was part of the job, the shape by that time having evolved.
The old bows stayed in the yard until the Allens made this owner an offer he could not refuse.
Compare with the bows of Placidus above built in the 90's the bow post being flatter and wider on the earlier bows.
Another boat that had to be ripped away from the yard when it closed, I am still looking for another Valencia Wharf.
|
| 
|
|
The Answer:-- BW Number 46623: 60 ft long:
Built late 1980's: Engine, Originally 1.5 BMC. today Isuzu: Home waters BCN. Fitted out believed by previous owner.
Is lived on by owners so its a home and is cherished greatly.
Photo taken at Titford in 2003, but I see this boat and her owners nearly every week apart from when they are out cruising which is nearly every summer all summer, lucky people.
|
|
|
Black Pig:-- BW Number 67344:
Probably the oldest boat surving to date, built 1969: well its a toss up between this boat and Ty Twt below. Both have a shape that puts them in a class off there own. Both boats are used regularly just what an Allen boat is all about.
Again the BW number is shown to be important as this boat was orginally called Tranquilty, and was re painted plus changing owners.
Appears to have her original wooden top, as in early days hulls only constructed.
|
|
|
Ty Twt:-- BW Number 61203:
If not the oldest certainly very close late 1960's. This boat and her owners have been true stalwarts of the Register having attended every gathering to date.Photographed at Titford in 2003 but I have a photo of her at nearly every gathering, a much traveled boat.
|
|
|
Rainbow:-- BW Number 63238:
Built in 1973 with a 50ft steel hull and a plywood cabin. Her present owner bought her in 1993 and lives on her, nice to see that see is still about and has an actice life. Her engine presently is a Lister SW2 which sounds to us as the original unit. Her present owner is keen to know any history of the boat, and the photograph supplied dates from 1993 in her then livery that may jog someones memories. Her windows are stated to be Bus windows manufactured by Famco.
|
|
|
Ellen:-- BW Number 502869:
After the oldest boats the last boat built at the yard. Photographed at Thrupp in 2006, she has retained her name but has new owners and a new paint job.
Her former owners have moved on or up to a Dutch Barge. More photo's of her being lifted onto a lorry on the last day at the yard are in the Gallery section.
|
|
|
Chanterelle:-- BW Number 60275: Fitout by owner who just happened to be carpenter at yard, responsible for many a boatmans cabin built in the yard.
Another early boat but having a very different bow to the two previous boats, indicating the evolving of the shape of an Allen over the years. She has a bow similar to Hawthorn.
Moored at the yard for years but left well before the yard closed. Photograph at the Kings Bromley Rally in 2004.
|
| 
|
|
Albatross No 2:-- BW Number 52274:
Photograph taken of her moored in 2006 at the Bond Warehouse/Stourbridge canal Rally that is held every October. A boat that also moored at the yard, other earlier photo's in Gallery section. Very smart in all the photographs, as she in both the early and latest shots had been recently painted/re-painted and sign written.
|
|
|
Acorn No 5:-- BW Number 500991: Engine Lister FR2
This boat was built in 1996 and this was the boat featured in the gallery section when a lorry rolled down a bank onto a boat.
Acorn survived, indeed more damage was caused to the lorry, Acorn's front 'T' stud punching a hole in the trailer of the lorry. Many a rope has been tied to that stud since with out incident.
Another Allen up for sale in 2009. See Allens For Sale Section for more details.
In football terms this boat is 'Premier League' in the top half of the league.
|
| 
|
|
Ursula:-- BW Number 71645:
Photograph taken at the Kings Bromley Rally in 2004: Outside entrance to Marina. Different to most Allens in having a cruiser styled back deck.Built in 1985, engine a 1.5 BMC, the fit out being completed by Teddesley Marine, Penkridge, who ran a fleet of hire boats many using Allen shells.
Supplied into another hire fleet Gailey Marine named Gailey Wayfarer 2 where she worked as a hire boat until the end of 1992. Purchased by present owner in January 1993 and renamed Ursula.
BMC engine being well worn was replaced in 2005 with a Nannidiesel.
|
|
|
Intrepid:-- BW Number 54019:--Currently Sept 2008 "UP FOR SALE".
For more details see below:Allens For Sale Section: On to page 7 of the Allen Register
First photographed at the 1st BCN Titford Pumphouse Allen Rally in 2003 when she was as she was built lenght 55ft. Built in 1992 and fitted with a Rushton Hornsby 2YW engine. In 2005 she was lenghtened by Ray Bowen to her present lenght of 62ft.
Second photograph taken at Tardibigge gathering of Allen boats, lenght 62ft and new paint job.
|
| 
|
|
Eclipse:-- BW Number 79993
Another older boat with a wooden top and a shape of bow with the flatter and wider stem post.
Photo taken 2006 at Thrupp gathering with John Allen inspecting work in progress, as she was in the process of having her windows changed.
This boat had a float on part in an 'Morse' murder story, filmed and set around Thrupp. Owner can tell a few tales about the filming process and did not know until then just how many poeple ie crew you could get on his boat without sinking her.
|
|
|
Iberia:-- BW Number 54297
Photograph taken at Thrupp Gathering in 2006. Boat and owners have attended many of the gatherings.
Fitted with a 1957 Gardner 4LK Engine (ex Bristol Omnibus Co), installed along with a hydraulic drive by Albert Brookes. Albert also installed the 4 kw generator which is situated under the side bed in the boatmans cabin, the cabin being built at the yard by Arthur East. Built and launched in 1993 at yard. First cruise was in February 1994 just up the cut to Brades Locks.
In April 1994 left the yard and cruised to Blue Haven Marine (Hillmorton) where she was fitted out professionally. Won the Calor Rose bowl at the 1995 IWA National at Chester.
|
|
|
Sunbeam II:-- BW Number 500863: Engine Rushton and Hornsby rebuilt by Albert Brookes: Has very distinctive exhaust sound
Photograph taken at Bonded Warehouse/Stourbridge Rally in October 2006. Boat built in early 90's to replace another boat named Sunbeam. Has a raised gas locker on her bows, boat also seen in the Allens Gallery when a lorry fell on the boat moored next to it.
|
|
|
The following black and white photographs are by kind permission of Harry Arnold/Waterway Images.
They are of Bracken as a hotel boat when in her prime. Photographed at Braunston On the 6th November 1971 with George Pearson the then owner steering.
|
| 
|
|
Eli:-- BW Number 77789:
Built in 1981 around a Gardner 3LW engine. Originally built as a full lenght boat of 70ft with a 35ft long steel cabin, the rest being sheeted. Later had a full lenght cabin fitted believed not by the Allens. Her first owners tell the story that when she was being built they visited the yard and found the bow section fitted, a visit shortly after found the bow section removed, when they asked the Allens what had happened they just replied " we took it off, we didn't like it".
Today she is owned by new owners who treasure her and have joined the register.
|
| 
|
|
Beechcraft:-- BW Number 54759:
Built by the Allens in the early 90's. The boat was built for the family of the Steel stock holders Beechs, of Cradley, the company the Allens had for years bought all the steel from, used in thier boats . Bob used to attend the company and select the steel for each boat, never just relying on just a random delivery. Has an enclosed cruiser rear deck with seating each side, but looks like a normal Allen in profile, engine fitted beneath the floor of the rear deck. Cabin fitted out by Arthur East, stayed at the yard until the retirement of the Allens, recently has been re painted and sign written.
|
|
|
May:-- BW Number 51923:
Built by the Allens in 1990. Engine Russel Newbury DM2.
This boat was built for its 1st owner who before it was fully finished was tragically killed in a motor car accident. Present owner who wanted an Allen acquired the boat from the relatives of the first owner, the boat prior to this never having left the yard. In later years the boat was taken to Pinders and made into a half tug styled boat. The Engine was moved forward to create a full boatmans cabin.
For all would be boat owners or others thinking of changing/upgrading to a vintage styled engine the present owner of May is the man too see. Dave as the smaller sign states, is reponsible for manufacturing all new Russel Newbury engines, that tel no is 01327-700023, whilst the larger one indicates yet further services.
|
| 
|
|
Norwood (3):-- BW Number 60001:
The last boat to be built by the Allens out in the open, ie not in the covered shed just before the yard closed. The owner of Norwood has had two previous boats built by the Allens all called Norwood, the BW no 60001 has been transferred to each new boat. First boat in 1976 when built, had a Lister SR3 engine. See photo below.
A Norwood is know named Hanna No 1 Bw No 500813, is 60ft long would like a photo of her.
May 2009. Have had correspondance from the owner of Norwood 1. She is still named Norwood being presently not registered on BW water, being on the Fens where she does not require to be registered. Owner informs us that she is not being used at the moment but is in fine fettle with her orginal engine still fitted and in good order. Hope to have a more recent photo of her in due course.
|
|
|
Norwood (1):-- BW Number XXXXX:
May 2009. Have had correspondance from the owner of Norwood 1. She is still named Norwood being presently not registered on BW water, being on the Fens where she does not require to be registered. Owner informs us that she is not being used at the moment but is in fine fettle with her orginal engine (Lister SR3) still fitted and in good order. Hope to have a more recent photo of her in due course.
Was believed to have had a wooden top but present owner informs us that she has aways had a steel cabin.
|
|
|
Albion:-- BW Number 49902
A 55ft Tug styled boat powered by a Russell Newbury DM2, built around 1989. Was built to be a tug, originally built for and owned by a coal and canal contractor Ray Shelley who operated out of the Allens Yard at Oldbury. Time at yard this boat didn't as far as I can recall have a name and was just painted in red primer and referred to as the tug, being used on a number of contracts as a tug.
Was sold on in May 1995 to her present owner who had her fully fitted out and turned into the very smart BCN tug she is today. Sign written in 2005 she bears the name "Albion" with the "Brettell and Company Brewood" mottif on her rear cabin sides. Is today moored on the River Avon.
This boat is briefly glimpsed in her red primer state in the early 1990's at the back of a photograph behind the smoke in the Allens Register Gallery in the Roy Gallery section, re produced here.
|
| 
|
|
Gower:-- BW Number non: Is today Registered as N9346. EA Anglian Region:
How I forget about this boat when compiling the list at the very beginning I don't know, but I did.
Mike Freeman who had her built in the early 80's has only just reminded me of her omission. She was a full 70ft hull with a large canvas covered section forward of a extended cabin/engine room/boatmans cabin arrangement. The only picture of her has always been displayed in the gallery, when her livery was green panels with red surrounds and yellow piping, but I do remember that had changed just before she left the midlands from grey and cream. Her BW number in those days was 77775.
|
|
|
December 2009:- Wonderful thing the inter-net have just been sent some photographs of Gower from her present owners who have put right my mistake of missing out on her the photographic record.
The first photo of how many of us will remember her when we all moored at the yard and Mike's Grey livery with the 'Cut Cloth Company' logo.
The second being as she is today having been repainted before she was sold and re sign written with her present owners name.
|
| 
|
|
Serenity:-- BW Number 53123: Formerly named 'Poppy':
Built in the early 1990's by her former owner Karl who named her Poppy (Karl being one of the many charactors at the yard). Lenght 56ft powered by, as was popular then a KD26 Kingfisher engine, mounted in a traditional engine room. Fitted out by her 1st owner who was a retired wood work teacher. Left the yard for a mooring on the River Avon well before the Allens retired in 1997.
Sold on to her present owner who lives aboard, changed name to Serenity and attended 1st Rally at Tardibigge in 2007.
|
|
|
Proper Job:-- BW Number 52209:
Recently sent a photograph of this 60ft long boat. Photographed at Lymm in 2008. Nice to see two Allens together.
|
|
|
Rambler:-- BW Number 51610 ( Guess as only Rambler 60ft with no builder listed):
A 60ft long boat built in 1991, believed to have been named 'Goliath' previously, bought by present owner in 2001. Has a vintage engine a circ 1941 Ruston & Hornsby Engine in a seperate engine room.
More info on this boat and the experiences of boat ownership and living with a vintage engine visit the owners own site.
http://www.mynarrowboat.me.uk
|
|
|
Bonnie:-- BW Number 67961:
Bonnie was traced following an enquiry after she was put up for sale on the Apollo Duck site. Built in the late 1960's she is 41feet long with a Coventry Diesel engine. Believed previously named Bonnie and Clyde?, have spoken to the owner selling her who has promised to pass on our detals to her new owner as it looks she may be sold. Look forward to her new owner contacting us.
|
|
|
Royal Oak:-- BW Number 51409:
Owner contacted us after finding site, being first owner of the boat, it built at the yard in 1991/92, and who has fond memories of the yard. Originally built as a 56foot long boat and powered by a Russell Newbury D2 circ 1940. The engine was re built by Albert Brookes whilst boat was being built.
In 2003 the boat was lenghten by Simon Wain to 69ft-6ins so this boat has the hands of many a fine boat builder/craftsman on it.
The owner contacted us as he was in the process of selling the boat which we believe will be on the market end of May 2008. Has a owner fitout which if only a fraction of the quality of its shell builders will be worth every penny asked for it. See Allens for sale section for more details.
|
|
|
Windrush:-- BW Number 75373:
For reasons that escape me I have never had a photograph of Windrush and she has been at many of the gatherings from the very start of the Register. Her owners have owned her since new and have travelled most of the canal system in her. She is registered as 50ft long and has a Ford York diesal fitted. Finally caught up with her when she attended Hawne Gathering in 2008, just after she had had a new paint job and was yet to be sign written.
|
|
|
Thornbury:-- BW Number 77458:
Another boat and owner that I have known off for ages but never managed to get a photo of. Similar to Windrush she came to me to have her photo taken at Hawne in 2008. A 59ft long boat with a Lister HR in and engine room, has travelled the system with her owners who are very active in local societies and the IWA.
A Second photo of Thornbury as the VIP boat at the opening of the Frankton locks, in her former livery. (Photo by kind permission of Harry Arnold/Waterway Images)
|
| 
|
|
Romany Rye:-- BW Number 53208:
Built in 1993 this 70ft boat has all the credentials of a 1st division boat. An Allen shell, Gardner 2LW diesel engine circ 1949,in engine room, fitout by Teddesley with a traditional boatmans cabin. What esle more would you want.
|
|
|
Iteshale:-- BW Number 75671:
This 46ft long boat has been known to the register for sometime but we have never had a photograph. Seen in 2009 and photographed, sorry the photo is at an angle taken whilst boating and trying not to hit a bridge with a boat moored near to it.
|
|
|
Ploddin:-- BW Number 46707
Added to the list in October 2008 when her present owner contacted the register. Today this 55ft boat is named Ploddin but was formly named as Bintang No 5. Appears from the photos to still have Bintang painted on her cabin. Also her owner has stated she is a job not yet finished, her windows seem to have been replaced by port holes prior to the paint job yet to be done?
|
| 
|
|
White Harriet II:-- BW Number 503490
Formerly named 'Furcomall': This boat was bought by her present owners recently having the name 'Furcomail'. Bought as an Allen she exhibited a number of features that threw doubt on that fact. She attended the 2008 gathering and many theories as to her origins took place, but she certainly had a 95% Allen look.
She was thought to be a John Horton boat as she is recorded as being first registered in 1998 a full year after the yard closed. John Horton has since stated that she is not one of his boats.
After much detective work by her present owner and Bob Allen inspecting photos of her, she has been identified as a boat built by the Allens in 1992, she was then called 'My Way'. Her then owner had her transported by road to Poole in Dorset where she stood for about six years in a field being fitted out.
Was finally sold on as an unfinished project and taken to Braunston where she was finally fitted out. Her engine was changed from a BMC unit to her present Lister twin, a removable panel in the engine room roof was fitted. Also at this time a second engine room door was fitted, orginally only having one, many of the features that trouble the purests were added to her at this time. She was then registered in 1998 thus making her probably the last Allen shell to be registered.
A 60ft long boat photographed at Hawne early 2008. Latest photograph of new paint job and know that she is proved to be an Allen, has Valencia Wharf proudly displayed.
|
| 
|
|
Jude 2:-- BW Number 70700:-- May 2009 "UP FOR SALE".
See below: Allens For Sale Section: On to page 7 of the Allen Register
This boat has been listed for sometime but we have never had a photo. Has appeared on Apollo Duck as up for sale see section above for more details. Have used the photo on Apollo for this section.
From info she is 40 foot in lenght was built in 1988 and is powered by a Mitsubishi Type 80 engine converted by Thornicroft.
|
|
|
Rose of Clayworth:-- BW Number 79690:--Currently 2009 "UP FOR SALE".
For more details see Apollo Duck Website: Advert no 122740
This boat has been listed for sometime but we have never had a photo. Has appeared on Apollo Duck as up for sale see section above for more details. Have used the photo on Apollo for this section.
From info she is 46 foot in lenght was built in 1976 and is powered by a Lister SR3.
|
|
|
|
Fledermaus:-- BW Number 76903:--Renamed was Cambrai.
This boat has been listed for sometime as Cambrai in the written list. Was up for sale sometime ago from where the photo was obtained
From info she is 70 foot in lenght and is powered by a Perkins 4108.
|
|
|
Brunel:-- BW Number xxxxx: May 2009
Listed as For Sale on Apollo Duck in the Traditional narrowboat section: Advert No 103039
Powered by a Leyland engine ( BMC 1.5) Built in 1975. Is 40ft long with a presumed Wooden cabin
New boat to the Register as to date not listed by us as an Allen boat. But photo looks like an early Allen, hope to get more info.
For Further details and contacts info view:-www.apolloduck.co.uk
|
| 
|
|
Clytie:-- BW Number 60288
This boat has been listed for sometime in the written list. Owner recently contacted us with information and a photograph.
A 1972 built boat orginally built for and to the requirements of a David Steptow who requested a 'josher',is 70ft long with a RN DM2 engine.
Has been in the ownership of her present owner since 1978 whi describes her as very much one of the family.
Must be a very early steel boat, must take that upwith the Allens and see if we can bring any more info to the table.
|
| |
|
Phoenix:-- BW Number 78245
A boat up for sale in 2009 at Whilton Marine, advertised as an Les Allen. Contacted by her new owner when in the process of buying her. Had found this site and was surprised by the marque of boat was buying into, so contacted us.
Interestingly this boat had been flagged up as a boat worth looking at by us as noted in a number of lists as being built by ALLAN ?.
New owner set us info about her, built 1978, is 46ft long and is powered by a Gardner 3LW.
New owner states she is in very good condition, has lovely lines and has a fitout that is very tidy and of good quality being advertised as fitted out by the Allens.
At this stage from her photo she looks tidy enough to be an Allen but the gas locker lid is not as an Allen, will need to do some more research, but am putting on site as an Allen until proved otherwise
|
| |
